Episode #20 - Insurance: More than just a policy

In Episode #20, we chat with Rand & Mark Austin of Beehive Insurance. Rand has been in the insurance business for 40 years and is a wealth of knowledge. We also talk with Ty Walker about CSA scores. 

Transcript

0:11

Welcome to driver, to driver, a Stokes trucking podcast on driver to driver. We will discuss everything related to trucking. And put a stokes trucking spin on it stokes trucking doing the right thing since 1979.

Mark Lawver: 0:34

Hello and welcome to episode 20 of driver to driver, a Stokes trucking podcast. I'm your host mark lover. I am joined by a fill-in co-host this time around

Becki: 0:46

Becky lover,

Mark Lawver: 0:47

because grace is a little busy being. a college student.

Becki: 0:50

Yeah. She had a midterm midterms this week and a lot of stuff with her sorority. So Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 0:58

parents.

Becki: 1:00

lots of, lots of excitement going on on campus this week for her. So I am. Taken one for the team and going to be your cohost.

Mark Lawver: 1:09

Like it's so hard to, Hey, could you walk downstairs and record for 15 minutes?

Becki: 1:15

Yeah, but I had to do all the prep work too, and I even took some notes and wrote some questions.

Mark Lawver: 1:19

Grace never does that.

Becki: 1:20

Hey, are you going to pay me,

Mark Lawver: 1:23

Deep in a roundabout way? Yes. Okay.

Becki: 1:27

I guess I'll, I'll take it.

Mark Lawver: 1:30

So, what do we have first on the. podcast?

Becki: 1:33

Uh, your insurance guys from beehive

Mark Lawver: 1:35

oh, mark and Rand, Austin, had a conversation with them. It was a couple of months ago at the uh, Frankfurter studio west Atlanta. in the office.

Becki: 1:47

Nice.

Mark Lawver: 1:49

Rand was quite impressed with our little studio. We we've, uh, put together over there. And my office, we talked about

Becki: 1:54

I, I did hear the props you gave me about picking out your couch and your furnishings for your office. So thank you. Thank you.

Mark Lawver: 2:03

You know, Julie decorated the office,

Becki: 2:05

right?

Mark Lawver: 2:06

Like the furniture inside. that If it was up to us to the guy. it'd be concrete. All right. Uh, well, let's get right into our interview. with Rand and Mark Austin from beehive insurance.

Grace: 2:24

Let's roll

Mark Lawver: 2:35

You Like my studio Rand.

Rand: 2:36

I do. I love it. It's my favorite room.

Mark Lawver: 2:41

Well I kind of liked my couch, in my office. I haven't laid on it much, but Val come in and he'll just like kick back. Oh yeah. All the time.

Rand: 2:52

Where'd you get that couch?

Mark Lawver: 2:53

Store called eighth and main. In LA. My wife found it. She did all my decoration in

Rand: 2:59

It's nice. It looks good.

Mark Lawver: 3:00

Yeah. We were going for retro madman. me and Valerie, both fans of the show, mad men. that was the, that was what we were shooting. for actually

Rand: 3:12

Your wife did a great job. It looks good in there.

Mark Lawver: 3:15

So I'm joined by Rand, Austin from beehive.

Rand: 3:21

Thank you, mark. Great to be here.

Mark Lawver: 3:23

And Mark Austin, who's also with beehive insurance.

Mark Austin: 3:27

Happy to be along for the ride

Mark Lawver: 3:28

father, son.

Rand: 3:29

Yes, indeed.

Mark Austin: 3:30

Yep

Mark Lawver: 3:31

And you're originally from up here

Rand: 3:35

by correct? I grew up, up on the east Garland. I did. Yeah,

Mark Lawver: 3:41

you don't have to give away your age. You graduated from bear river a little ahead of owl.

Rand: 3:48

1971 So anybody can do the math. I'm 68.

Mark Lawver: 3:55

And mark, I guess you were cause you live in salt or not salt lake, south of there right?

Rand: 4:02

Yeah. I live in Davis county about 20 miles north of salt lake.

Mark Lawver: 4:06

And you grew up down there. right?

Mark Austin: 4:08

Yeah. Davis high school.

Mark Lawver: 4:10

How'd you get in insurance? I can't imagine you're going to high school. You're like, man, somebody I want to sell trucker's insurance.

Rand: 4:17

Well, actually that's true. I had no idea even what an insurance policy was at that age. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I went to a business college in salt lake, uh, attended the university of Utah, but graduated from Steven center or college thought I wanted to be an accountant. And I went to work for an insurance company in their accounting department. Um, not too long after that, I realized that I really didn't enjoy. Doing that. And I had a job offer from, oh, another company. I think it was Devolt paint company, how to management, training, position available. And so I gave my notice at the insurance company and they said, whoa, don't go. Why don't you try, insurance underwriting. so that's what they did. The insurance underwriting position that was open was. Trucking trucking insurance. And, uh, so I thought, well, I really liked the people here. I just really thought I needed to kind of make a career change. So I did, I gave that a try, really enjoyed it, enjoyed my boss, the people that I worked with, uh, spent four years there, um, learning to underwrite truck insurance, which means. Determining what people had to pay for insurance, what risks qualified, uh, which programs to put them in and that sort of thing. some of the insurance agents that we dealt with, they got to know quite a few of those independent agents. And one of those came in and convinced me that I was in the wrong side of insurance, that I should be helping customers. And, uh, on the retails. And made me an offer. So I left, went with an agency that's been 44 years ago that I made that change to an agency from, the insurance company side,

Mark Lawver: 6:07

mid seventies is when you started correct? selling

Rand: 6:11

1977, actually. Yes.

Mark Lawver: 6:13

So was it beehive then or was it a different

Rand: 6:18

Actually, it was a company called affiliated insurance agency, which, uh, was the remnants of a large agency in salt lake called Tracy Osborne Dixon that was owned by Tracy Collins bank and trust. it was the type of bank that some laws were passed and they were no longer able to own insurance operations. So they sold that agency off. some of their current agents bought the agency and it was one of those that hired me away from the insurance company to work at affiliated insurance. W I was there, I think for 22 years, that agency was eventually acquired by. first security bank, which then sold to Wells Fargo bank. And after a few years we made a change and moved our book of business, which we were able to purchase mark. And I were there together at that time and we went to beehive insurance at that time. And that's been whatever the math is to add up to 44 years

Mark Lawver: 7:21

22 years ago. Late in late nineties, right? before,

Rand: 7:26

Correct. Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 7:28

So when did you start? Was it like right after college or,

Mark Austin: 7:32

yeah, I was going to college. Um, yeah, I worked at a service station where we, um, a full service station and we'd change oil and sell tires and things like that. And the, the owner of that decided to get into the simplify and just become a convenience. And when they, they had to tear that building down and rebuild it. And I was going to school at the university of Utah and in search of a new part-time job. And that's when this guy talked me into coming over and, coming onboard is kind of the file filing clerk. And, uh, I just worked at our agency part-time as I went to school and never had the intention to stay. Yeah, that was about 1996. And

Mark Lawver: 8:19

been at it ever

Mark Austin: 8:20

here sounds good

Mark Lawver: 8:21

then. Are you still part-time or busy?

Mark Austin: 8:24

that depends on who you ask, but, uh, it's been a good, good job and, uh, turned into a good career. Um, like I said, I didn't intend on staying, but back when I started things were a little bit different. A lot less automated and we actually had a lot more control. as far as the underwriting went and really felt like we could make a difference and, and help people out and, offer them a better product oftentimes for better costs than they were currently paying. And, uh, I liked it and ended up, ended up staying there, but

Mark Lawver: 9:02

cool. So I'd Val says He's been buying his insurance from you since the beginning, which is it's been 42 years. Is he your longest term? Is there somebody that has been with you right from the beginning?

Rand: 9:21

You know, I actually have a couple of smaller accounts that I wrote right in 1977, uh, that are still in business and I still

Mark Lawver: 9:31

still doing them

Rand: 9:32

but Val is correct. He's one of the very early ones in my career. And, uh, things change with companies. they sell like go out of business and that kind of thing, but, you know, Stokes has been just so solid for all of those years.

Mark Lawver: 9:47

did, did he start purchasing insurance from you? Because he did, you know each other When you were young?

Rand: 9:54

No. Um, that's a good question. And we didn't vows a few years younger than me and you know how it is in small high schools, you came to know the kids that your are your same age or within a year or two? Um, I didn't know, Val, I think through some references when I was in, uh, The insurance business. we got to know each other, the commonality of course, valves up, located up here in box elder county, where I grew up and, uh, we just, we hit it off and, uh, Val's always done a really good job to be honest with you. Val's one of those companies that's over the years. Has it been easy to find good insurance programs for, because he has always run such a good clean operation. And I'm not saying that just because I'm here with you. he's always been a good judge of character with drivers that he's hired and that sort of thing. And it's really interesting to see how that has carried over through all the years, in the ability to purchase good insurance from good strong companies, preferred premiums and those sorts of things.

Mark Lawver: 11:02

So you, I wouldn't say you specialize in small companies, but you told me, you've told me in the past that a majority of your policies are. for Smaller company even smaller than, than ours, right?

Rand: 11:17

Yes. Yeah. We have, uh, a large book of business of small accounts, a one unit accounts. Five unit accounts, 12 unit accounts, you know, all the way on up. We do have some larger accounts where people are running 150 plus trucks and that type of thing. I think what we've determined over the years is, um, if you treat the trucker with one truck the same as you treat the trucker with 150 trucks, life's good for everybody. Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 11:50

well, it's, I mean, most people don't understand, but our, like our dispatchers, we deal with beehive. Quite often. We need to get insurance certificates to brokers, people we haul freight for, and it's always been easy from where I sit Doing business with beehive. So,

Rand: 12:11

Well, we try to specialize in that and our people, uh, we have a full trucking insurance department there and they understand what truckers need and hopefully we're always there doing the right thing for them.

Mark Lawver: 12:25

Yeah. And, and you, you're not just selling truck insurance. Do you do business all kinds of different types of insurance?

Rand: 12:34

Correct. Um, beehive insurance is a full-service insurance agency and they insure anything from a small, dry, cleaner to, um, multi-state multi-billion dollar construction concerns and that sort of thing. and so we were able to offer coverage. Uh, for instance to a trucking company, many times you just think of the insurance, the trucks need, but, uh, such as Stokes, trucking, build a beautiful terminal and that sort of thing. And you need good coverages for those buildings. Other concerns that they might have. And, uh, so yes, it's a full service agency and it's, it's necessary to keep yourself well-rounded in the insurance business to be familiar with what coverages are needed, as well as what insurance companies are now getting good at so that we can make sure we're getting our customers into those

Mark Lawver: 13:32

So for truckers, what, goes in to setting what we pay for insurance?

Mark Austin: 13:38

Well, that's a good question, mark. And I know it's something that Val's concerned about. And I think it's a good thing for, for everybody in the company to kind of know what you're being judged on by the outside world and that being insurance companies, that being the government, that being even shippers that consider, consider giving you your loads, your insurance company's rates are derived on a lot of different factors. Uh, a broad overview, I would say you can narrow them down to a few of the most important things or the few biggest things. And the biggest single factor is probably your current loss history, meaning the number of accidents that you have and how much is being paid for those accidents on a yearly basis. You're, you're judged extremely heavily on your last three years and heavily on your last five years of accident history. Loss history as we call it. whatever you can do to control your accidents is going to save you on insurance in the long run. the next thing are your FMCSA or your SMS scores. Those are the world that we live in now, where everything's online. Everybody can see those. It, it wasn't that many years ago that nobody knew really what your scores were. You had to give them permission to see him, now just about anybody can log in and have a pretty good idea of where you sit.

Mark Lawver: 15:05

So inspections tickets, anything, We get a violation. for

Mark Austin: 15:10

Yeah. You have vehicle maintenance, hours of service, unsafe driving drug and alcohol, and you have a score in each of those categories. And it's why it shows how many violations you have and then a basis you on peer groups again. Like companies and how many are you're expected to have, and whether you're doing better or worse than, than what is expected for your operation. So that's a big one. the third thing, and it might be right behind your loss history are you're in the insurance business. They call it driver quality. But what it comes down to mostly is your drivers NVRs and. What's on them as far as accidents and violations. And, uh, you can kind of see why, that is such a big thing for a F for a few different reasons. One is the studies, that they do and, um, the way they look at it is. If a driver has a certain violation, he is more likely to have an accident, or they just have so many statistics on that kind of stuff. Now that, that they judge them pretty harshly based on some of those violations. the other thing is with the drivers, if they do have an accident and end up in, uh, in the court and they have to be defended by their insurance company. the insurance company makes a pretty quick determination as far as how hard this driver is going to DP to defending court, um, and kind of the worst case scenario. And if that driver has speeding tickets, the plaintiff attorneys come in and say, well, this guy had a pattern of speeding and the trucking company still hired him and put him out there on the road, knowing that he was a danger to the public or. Maybe he's rear-ended somebody and he had a follow to close violation previous to that. He gets very hard to defend in those situations, because of the way the plaintiff's attorneys portray him and his employer for, for putting them out there on the road. And that's a tough one that we're always. Trying to guard against, if they have certain violations, the insurance company would like him to have be provided additional training in those areas, just as a way of being able to defend them should something bad happen down the road. And they have to defend them in the court of law.

Mark Lawver: 17:32

that has a lot to do with the nuclear verdicts today. Right. But I mean, a lot of what we do is if there is a problem. can we Defend ourselves and say, we tried to do our due diligence to make sure we wouldn't have a problem.

Rand: 17:49

Exactly. Right.

Mark Lawver: 17:50

Yeah Here, but they're just yesterday or I think it was Tuesday in Florida. It was a, a$1 billion.

Mark Austin: 17:58

We heard that. I heard that yesterday. Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 18:00

What I read it doesn't sound like there's any hope of anyone ever collecting, But because both companies are out of it. Yeah.

Rand: 18:08

right? Yeah. The nuclear verdicts are something that we all fear the plaintiff's attorneys are. Um, and this isn't to criticize attorneys. They're doing their job, but they're becoming very good at painting a picture, whether it's accurate or not that a jury or a judge might. Truly believe. And of course I'm in a large truck accident, they try to make the trucking company look as guilty as they possibly can. And it's really important for the trucking company prior to that accident ever happening to do everything they can to make it very hard for someone to make them look bad in a court of law, following an accident.

Mark Lawver: 18:50

Yeah, we, well, you guys both know how much we've kind of clamped down and gotten stiff and strict. about, It's not just about accidents or tickets. It's about just plain old behavior you know, aggressive driving, speeding, even leaving late or, you know, things where we think you may be distracted. Like we can we kind of pick that out and we've gotten pretty, pretty rough with our drivers and and we've let some go, like we're trying. To preemptively prevent an accident. It's it's tough, especially when it's someone who's maybe been employed here for a long time, you know, trying to retrain them or, get them on board.

Rand: 19:42

You know, one thing that insurance companies always hate to hear is following an accident when the owner of the trucking company makes the comment, oh, I knew this was going to happen with that guy. And, and, uh, we as agents sit there and think, I wish you wouldn't have said that to your insurance company, you know? And, uh, it's a natural thing to say, but, uh, you know, what you're doing is. Is really what, um, you need to do to protect yourselves, to place yourself in a position to have good insurance rates. But, you know, what's really most important is you're doing what needs to be done to protect people, your own people and the public. And I know that most of your drivers feel that way and, um, their behaviors. Good. it's just a behavior. Situation I think you're doing a good job looking at that. Thank you.

Mark Lawver: 20:39

we're trying So Val told me, he thought you've ensured some colorful. folks Over the years.

Rand: 20:49

Well, yeah, that's kind of interesting. I probably have, and I'm sure mark has too, trucking is, can kind of be a colorful world in a way. that's, not to say it's bad. You know, I, we love the characters that we've met over the years. Uh, but yes. Yeah, we definitely have, uh, everything from extremely boring to extremely funny and exciting.

Mark Lawver: 21:13

do you have any good stories of a colorful character or event you can, you can leave out names?

Rand: 21:25

Yeah. Yeah. I do. My mind jumps to a few companies that we've had where, sometimes, you know, Situation where it's a husband and wife that own and run the company and the husband's running the shop and the, the wife sort of running the business and the, maybe the dispatching that's going on in that sort of thing. And, I, I've actually learned some new words from some of these people and that's kind of hard to believe having been raised in east Garland. Uh

Mark Lawver: 21:56

It's, it's hard family businesses or,

Rand: 21:59

yeah

Mark Lawver: 22:00

YouTube. it can, it can make Thanksgiving and Christmas weird. sometimes.

Rand: 22:08

Uh, but you know, some of the most amazing people I know I've met through this business, we had a large company, well, we still insure them down in central Utah and the dad who's now passed away. an amazing person loved to restore trucks, uh, uh, ran a very successful business and he, um, everyone, he knew he gave a nickname. And it's really interesting too, to think about the nickname now. I'm not all that proud of mine. He always, I somehow was quickly given the nickname of easy money, but, uh, But, uh, all of his sons and friends all have nicknames and he actually, you know, is pretty clever the names that he gave them. And they really weren't disrespectful in all cases. Uh, but they all had to do with their talents and their hobbies and that sort of thing. And, uh, uh, just wonderful people. So yeah, a lot of my best friends are from my business and always will be

Mark Lawver: 23:17

very cool.

Mark Austin: 23:19

Trucking does. Attract all different types of personalities, but we do have some funny stories. often part of our job, we bring in the safety representative from the various trucking companies to, to get a look at the trucking company to make the, the insurance company feel good about what they're insuring and, and some of the things. That the clients volunteer in front of those safety representatives is, is funny. But we were having a conversation with an, with a company one time and they were talking to them about, they were having a real hard time keeping drivers and their driver quality was, was deteriorating over time. And most of their drivers, The insurance company didn't love their MBRs or things about their records. And, and they were talking to them about trying to improve their driver quality and maybe attracting some, just a little bit better quality of driver overall. And, from the other room, one of the other owners of the company, I guess, had been overhearing this conversation and he had had enough and he, he yells across the hall, something to the effect of. Good hell, have you seen our equipment? We're never going to get good drivers, right? Which opens up a whole nother can of worms, but

Mark Lawver: 24:42

That's probably playing out what a underwriter wants to hear.

Mark Austin: 24:45

Yeah. The safety guy just kind of shut his notebook and sent him out. I think we're done here, but, um, that's just an example of, uh, you know, we, we see things like that all the time and have to lie.

Mark Lawver: 25:02

So you guys ensure special projects or you are USU project is one of them, is there what's like the most unique or exotic thing you've ever been asked to ensure I'm all curious,

Rand: 25:16

Hmm I'm thinking about that.

Mark Lawver: 25:18

I've got to think maybe animals or cars or

Rand: 25:24

over the years, uh, you know, people have, uh, A livestock color for instance, will have a load. That's a little out of the ordinary, like, uh,$10 million worth of horses that need to go from California to Kentucky. Of course they don't have an normal cargo type limit that would provide that kind of coverage. And it's pretty challenging to arrange that for them. Normally they call you. Two hours before they want to do it. And that's okay. That's difficult to do. along the line of special equipment, uh, quite often jet engines come into play where people need to transport, um, you know, a jet engine from, um, Seattle, Washington to, um, Boston, Massachusetts, and. You know, you're, you're pretty astounded at some of the values that are needed to take care of that, you know, on, uh, but, uh, yeah, normally you're able to get that taken care of for them. It comes at a cost and you know, the best thing, if something like that comes up is if a trucking company is looking at. They can plan for it because they're going to be in a situation where they're going to need to know what that's going to cost, because they're going to need to charge that back to who they might be, hauling it for. Otherwise there's no need to do it. If you're going to lose money,

Mark Lawver: 26:53

how much does commodity come into play in what a company's rate may be?

Mark Austin: 27:01

that's a good question. Um,

Mark Lawver: 27:04

companies that haul more oversize stuff. I imagine they probably get Uh, for the hat just because there's could be increased liability or I know hazmat. carriers obviously have Higher limits but

Mark Austin: 27:18

a lot of time. You're oversized loads or big equipment loads. And some of that equipment's pretty expensive. So your cargo rates reflect that. Um, it's, some things are really hard to ensure. And, but, but like Ron said, we, we rarely get the total, no answer, but it does happen from time to time. Is. We were talking about that. I w when the legalization of marijuana in different places became an, a thing. We had some guys calling saying, Hey, I can, I want to haul this stuff. And I get paid really good money to do it. And some of those guys, we, at that time, we couldn't find coverage at all for the answer was just, no. So

Mark Lawver: 28:01

was it a concern? Well, I guess the cargo is extremely valuable. but theft could be a,

Mark Austin: 28:08

theft and really the legalization of it and the different states and things like that. The insurance companies wanted to stay clear of what they're doing now. I'm not sure maybe they're hauling it and we don't even know, but, um, we don't get that question anymore.

Rand: 28:23

possibly like that. Learn not to ask.

Mark Lawver: 28:29

Ooh, that reminds me of a good story back to my 20 years ago, when I was driving. truck and Based down in Nebraska, we haul, we would haul furniture to the furniture, a large furniture store in Omaha. That's out of business now. And I picked up a load in Otay, Mesa, California. Like You could throw a rock and hit the fence. You know, the fence that was And it's these big couches, like cushy couches. They wouldn't let you on the dock. You know, The only time I saw what was in there it was when I pulled forward to close my doors. and I thought There could be 2000 pounds of Coke in there. I wouldn't have any clue, you know, closed the doors. And then off I go to Omaha, well, like oh three years later, the reason they're out of business is the owner got arrested, they were, they were smuggling drugs. I have no idea. I called 20 loads into there, you know, I mean, it was a big furniture store, so, yeah.

Rand: 29:33

yeah, yeah. That that's not the most desirable commodity. That's true. You know? Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 29:41

All right. Did you have anything else you wanted to cover?

Mark Austin: 29:47

No. Those are the kind of a brief overview of the things that you're judged. The more, most harshly on, I would say your loss history or your SMS scores and your, your drivers. Um, What we do is spend a lot of time talking to companies about what they can do about it and controlling the things they can control. And in a lot of cases, we found that it's just an educational issue for the drivers, knowing what part they play in that and how, how their actions can affect not just them and their, their history. Their company's history. And when we can, when we see companies that have a culture where they're all bought in and all working towards the same thing, um, it's just a night and day difference. Others have, uh, have drivers who, who don't really seem to know or care about how it's affecting the overall company. And those are the guys that tend to struggle more.

Mark Lawver: 30:47

so I guess we didn't really cover A lot of people, most people don't understand how insurance works you're just an agent you're going out, shopping the companies that actually insure your customers. So how many different underwriters are you guys working with?

Rand: 31:07

I would say, in the trucking realm, probably a dozen. now those get split up into some different categories. Some of them are in a situation where they like long haul trucks. More others say we'll insure trucks, but we like the local operations. and then you have the situations with commodities where some specialize in extremely hazardous commodities and your normal mainline insurance companies are happy about that because they don't want to do that. And so. If one particular account you're working on, not necessarily all 12, possibly of those companies are going to be interested in that account. Maybe four, possibly five would. And then we look at their not only their rates, but their coverage is to see if it's what that customer really needs. so this is. A situation where, you know, one company might have, uh, talking about a trucking company might have a, kind of a mixed operation, some long haul trucks, some local trucks and that sort of thing. And that actually becomes a little challenging because the long haul insurance company markets, aren't interested in it because of the local aspect and the local insurance company. From their underwriting. They're not interested in it from the long haul aspect. And so sort of, interestingly enough, those accounts become a little more challenging to find the best coverages for. Uh, but there, there seems to be, um, a good mix of insurance companies that we can find. well, we seem to have a few. Put most of our business with just because they do a better job and they specialize in that only, they just do trucking only. And, uh, so they stick with it. That's one of the things that's,

Mark Lawver: 33:04

Has there been some attrition in the trucking insurance market because of nuclear verdicts?

Mark Austin: 33:09

Yeah, definitely. like rants had, there may be a dozen markets out there riding truck or main players in that arena. but there seems to be less and less each year. And a lot of it has to do with. We see it all the time, uh, an insurance company, and sometimes they're the big name brand insurance companies will look at it and think, oh, we can make some money riding truck insurance. And they dabble in it for a few years. And then they just pull right back out and say, oh, nevermind. We're

Mark Lawver: 33:38

There's just too much liability.

Mark Austin: 33:39

We're getting killed there. Yeah. We're going to go right. Dry cleaners and be happy with it. But

Mark Lawver: 33:46

yeah, yeah. I wasn't aware, I mean, you know, I've got farm bureau for my autos. Right? So the two gets the check, but that farm Bureau's fairly big. They may be actually doing the underwriting, but with the truck, I remember when I got my own truck and you were like, yeah, I think we got it options Cause there wasn't anybody It was writing policies for single truck operators It was really, really hard. back then.

Rand: 34:15

Yeah, we've gone through some interesting times where I should say I have in all of these years. Um, there were some critical times back in the eighties when, uh, truck insurance, because of a lack of what's called capacity in the insurance markets, truck insurance was unbelievably, almost impossible to buy for any size of an account. And, um, That didn't last for a really long time, but it was really a critical time insurance companies now from a financial standpoint are healthy, but they're also picky. And I think they've become healthy because they've been fussy about what they write and they've kind of zeroed in on what they're good at. Um, you know, so,

Mark Lawver: 35:03

well, thank you. Both of you for joining me.

Rand: 35:07

Yeah

Mark Lawver: 35:08

it's, uh, it's been fun.

Mark Austin: 35:10

It's

Rand: 35:11

Hey,

Mark Lawver: 35:11

It's fun to do this.

Rand: 35:13

you know, can I mention one thing to drivers? Sometimes something that's come up in my career for many years is, drivers and trucking company owners always are quite defensive of their drivers, which they should be. Owners of trucking companies are loyal to their drivers and vice versa. And occasionally you'll have a driver who will have one or two accidents. Sometimes they're not serious at all. And insurance companies, uh, at that point, start again, getting to be a little bit nervous about that particular driver. so the discussion begins between the insurance company and us, and then us and the customer, the trucking company owner, and the trucking company owners. A lot of times. I think, well, this is kind of hard. She don't want me to employ this driver anymore because he's had one or two accidents and they're small, and I can explain why and many times that's very true. but, uh, insurance, the insurance industry is kind of interesting. They now have over 150 years of statistics. Unfortunately, what we deal with is people at insurance companies that deal in nothing but statistics and what the statistics show is that drivers who have an accident are 74% more likely to have another accident, which in a way, logically is almost opposite of what you would think. And, uh, The logic or the thought process, there is that a driver learns from the accident that he had. And, and so the thought would be, well, that will never happen again, but the statistics don't bear that out. And there are always exceptions to these things that we're saying, you know, some drivers truly do learn from that that happened and nothing ever does happen again. But statistically. He's going to have another accident. He or she will have another accident. So that's why insurance companies think along those lines, that's where our job comes in to help them understand what the trucking company is doing to help that driver. to improve. So that won't happen again. It's not always a situation where the insurance company says that driver has to be fired or we won't insure you, but they do want to know if, uh, the trucking company is doing something to help the driver get past that. Uh, particularly, maybe there's just a bad habit that the driver has and that sort of thing. So, drivers. Probably should just be aware that everything they do is important, not only for the safety of themselves in the public, but, um, with all of the information that's available to everyone at all times now kind of, unfortunately, in a way, the way we look at it, they can always be, judged on what they do. So I'd say to a driver. Be careful, uh, not only for us, but for yourself.

Mark Lawver: 38:18

Well, and if you do have a, if a driver does have a problem. It's not that all hope is lost. They also have statistics on if they complete this training. they have this much lower chance of having an accident. Again,

Rand: 38:32

that's true. And I'm glad you said that that is true and that it's, it's successful and a good company like Stokes pays attention to those things. Stokes trucking cares about the drivers. we like to see that happen because it just helps everybody.

Mark Lawver: 38:48

there was, I don't know, year and a half ago we implemented the video program and, Ty Walker has been sending out a weekly safety message. You know, sometimes it's just reminding, just reminding somebody. and It makes them think twice. or think about it. a

Rand: 39:06

We all need reminders, even as insurance agents

Mark Lawver: 39:09

Well, I needed a reminder this morning that I was supposed to get my ass over here. to interview. So it's a good thing. I was in my calendar.

Rand: 39:16

great.

Mark Lawver: 39:18

Well, thank you both. Uh, Randy and mark. you know, we talk about all the time, our customers and our vendors and our drivers are all partners. And again, W with beehive insurance, I feel very strongly or you're you're a partner in this. You're not just, a, someone we buy insurance from your, Your friends. And we care about you and we're happy we can continue to do business with you.

Rand: 39:43

Yeah We feel the same way.

Mark Austin: 39:45

Yeah. We'd love to be part of it. And we're proud to, to be part of split Stokes tracking.

Mark Lawver: 39:50

Well, Thank you for coming up and joining me And we're back from our interview with the Austins, Rand and mark. I see my fill-in co-host has a few notes. She's written

Becki: 40:10

I do. I have got a couple of questions for ya. The first one is you've been in trucking a long time. You've been a driver for a couple of different companies. so as a driver, when did. Insurance become something that you were interested in or paid attention to

Mark Lawver: 40:28

right away. as soon as I got my CDL, because insurance dictates whether you can get a job or not. Right.

Becki: 40:35

Gotcha.

Mark Lawver: 40:36

Big companies they'll they can hire new people, students. Uh, I didn't, I've been lucky through my career. I've never worked for a very big company. But it was really hard in the beginning to find someone small, that could insure me.

Becki: 40:54

Right. That could take a chance on you. Yeah.

Mark Lawver: 40:56

So Right out of the gate right away. Now, I wasn't worried about rates I was just worried about someone being able to insure me. Not long after I started driving though, we bought a truck. and Now, all of a sudden insurance rates became important to me. So I would say. for any driver, if you're not worried about insurance, you should be because insurance has a lot to do with your earning potential and where you can work really, truly does.

Becki: 41:30

Sure, sure. So what I have, some of that challenge has been for Stokes, um, from the Stokes perspe perspective, not necessarily challenges for Stokes, but from your perspective, Related to your insurance rates. Like what's been challenging you guys over the last couple of years.

Mark Lawver: 41:47

So we went through some trouble where we had high frequency. We weren't having big accidents, but the. there were several little ones and frequency is an indicator of the potential for

Becki: 42:01

accidents

Mark Lawver: 42:02

things later. Right. So that's, that's been really challenging for us from the. beginning. Val's had, you know, our equipment's always been top notch. we don't, we spare no expense on repairs or, you know, you hear all the time about carriers, just trying to scab tires you know, all those breaks we'll make it another trip. We've we've never done that. And so that's helped us certainly, but it applies to drivers too. And over the last two years, we've really changed our attitude about. Who who we hire, who will put in one of our trucks, which has made it tough. I mean, we've got, we've got an empty truck sitting, but our drivers today as a whole, that certainly the safest we've ever been the lowest accident rate we've ever had. Um, that doesn't mean our insurance rates have gone down. That's just been to maintain

Becki: 42:59

where you're

Mark Lawver: 42:59

where we're at. Yeah. So.

Becki: 43:01

I've got one more for ya.

Mark Lawver: 43:03

You got another question

Becki: 43:04

do. I want to know what successes have you had over the last couple of years related to your loss history? They talked a little bit about loss history.

Mark Lawver: 43:12

Yeah. Yeah. W we've had, uh, other than one big one, um, knock on my fake wood table in here or the last 18 month. We haven't had anything other than that one accident w we've had some smaller kind of little dingers, you know, a door gets hit here, We had a guy drive into a pole, you know, like, but that, those things always kind of happen. Right. Um, now if you see that the same guy that drove, drove into a pole, all of this. he gets a log book ticket and then a speeding violation. Well, that might change. but That has been the case. It's just been a lack of attention for a few seconds then we have a little dinger.

Becki: 44:01

Okay. I understand.

Mark Lawver: 44:02

Um, yeah.

Becki: 44:07

I may have had a few dinners in my, in my day.

Mark Lawver: 44:12

It's been you're better. You're better. Now

Becki: 44:17

When we first got married, man, it was a tough go for a minute.

Mark Lawver: 44:21

I guess coming up next, we have a segment with Ty Walker. What's Ty Walker talked about, CSA scores, CSA scores. Well, here we go with the segment with Ty Walker talking about hours, CSA scores.

Mark: 44:43

Ty Walker, how you doing?

Ty Walker: 44:45

I'm good. How are you, mark?

Mark: 44:46

Good. Thanks for joining me for another episode of Ty Walker's safety

Ty Walker: 44:50

minute. Yeah, it's good to be here with you, mark So

Mark: 44:52

safety. Extraordinary. What

Ty Walker: 44:54

have you been up to. Man just taking it one day at a time. It seems like, there's something new every day, right? Isn't that pretty much how

Mark: 45:00

you go today was pretty boring. Ty,

Ty Walker: 45:02

it's been pretty quiet. So

Mark: 45:04

August await it's October.

Ty Walker: 45:07

It's October, Kind of the same thing, right?

Mark: 45:10

Yeah. You got your Halloween costume picked out

Ty Walker: 45:13

I do my wife. She wants to, uh, she wants to be a scarecrow. So she was thinking I could maybe be like a farmer, something like that. And I'm like, no, if you're going to be a scarecrow. I'm going to be a Crow, So So, I looked at some, some suits on Amazon they're creepy like the Crow mask. Me and Tyler actually looked at them yesterday. They're they're pretty

Mark: 45:35

scary. You're really going to be a Crow

Ty Walker: 45:37

We're tossing it around. So how about you? Do You got an idea of what you're going to be?

Mark: 45:40

I'm going, just like this, serial killer, you know Got it.

Ty Walker: 45:47

Down I like it

Mark: 45:48

years of practice So what's our subject today

Ty Walker: 45:51

for,

Mark: 45:51

for the safety.

Ty Walker: 45:52

Wellmark I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about CSA scores today. So I was able to listen to your recording with Rand and mark. Right? You interviewed them a few weeks ago. And you guys talked about. I'll go

Mark: 46:08

ahead. Before we get too far into this, what is the CSA score?

Ty Walker: 46:12

Well, that's a good question. I can tell you exactly what it is. I've got my cheat sheet here. So CSA stands for compliance, safety and accountability. So it's basically the safety compliance and enforcement program. that the FMC CSA pretty much to keep motor carriers and drivers accountable, make sure that they're being safe. So, so that's what the CSA is. Um, in your interview with Rand and mark, you guys talked about how insurance companies. Rate carriers how they come up with prices. Right? You guys talked about that a little bit, so with that, he had mentioned, um, your current loss history, your CSA, SMS

Mark: 46:55

fours,

Ty Walker: 46:56

and also the drivers NVRs So I wanted to kind of get into that a little more about the CSA score and why it's so important for drivers. and for carriers to right? You probably think about it a lot as a partner of Stokes.

Mark: 47:10

Yeah. Insurance rates are always, they direct most of what we do. Safety wise. We want to lower our insurance

Ty Walker: 47:18

Yep. Yep

Mark: 47:19

Absolutely.

Ty Walker: 47:20

So in your interview with those guys, they mentioned kind of how insurance companies are really into, looking at statistics or looking at data. Right. Do you remember

Mark: 47:33

red

Ty Walker: 47:33

Grant had mentioned that? Sorry. so he had brought up a few statistics and I wanted to just mention a few of those. And let's see if you can, you can guess, um, here's a question for you, mark. If a driver has a, a reckless driving violation, how much more likely is that driver to get in an accident? Any ideas

Mark: 47:55

uh, 50% more likely

Ty Walker: 47:58

not quite a little higher than that. It's actually 114%. more likely. Yeah. So you think about

Mark: 48:05

it. So anybody with the reckless driving that.

Ty Walker: 48:07

more?

Mark: 48:09

They're definitely going to have an

Ty Walker: 48:10

Oh yeah So you think about why an insurance provider is looking at these scenes. Why would they want to take that risk upon them? If a driver is 114% more likely to have an accident, why would they want to take that on. Um, it makes, makes a lot of sense why they look at these things. I'm a driver, just a little more info for ya. A driver with a past crash is actually 74% more likely to have

Mark: 48:36

an

Ty Walker: 48:36

that's kind of interesting And I think you and mark talked about that, which I guess guys, will, people will hear that as they listen to this podcast, you think like if you're going to have an accident, you'll probably learn from that accident. But that's not always the case. You can actually be more likely than having another accident. So, Um, along with that, an hours of service violation puts a driver 50% more likely to have another accident. now you can see why I'm always looking at logs, right. Always watching them To make sure that they're to make sure that they're following their hours of service regulations. So, I guess, mark, let me ask you this at Stokes. when you're looking at drivers and you look at their, their CSA scores, cause each driver has a CSA score as well. Right. Do you want to talk about that at all? I'm kind of talking about more of like the companies

Mark: 49:26

do you're much more versed in CSA scores than. So

Ty Walker: 49:32

a driver actually carries around with them a PSP or basically a, a CSA score, which scores them on things like hours of service violations. they also will, will be scored on any, uh, moving violations. So if they were to get a, a. traffic Ticket, they ran a stop sign or you got a speeding ticket

Mark: 49:52

cargo securement goes into that too, right?

Ty Walker: 49:54

It does Yes, absolutely.

Mark: 49:57

uh, uh equipment out of service violations that counts against them as well.

Ty Walker: 50:01

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So mark, do you want to take a guess at how many inspections we've had this year?

Mark: 50:09

Overall

Ty Walker: 50:11

actually back up a little bit. It's actually not this year. It's in the last two years because a CSA score, it's looking at the previous

Mark: 50:17

tickets it's on a constant to your role,

Ty Walker: 50:20

Yep There's always two years of data behind it that it's basing your score. off of

Mark: 50:24

you? I need for clarification, any inspections?

Ty Walker: 50:27

any Any type of yeah any type of an inspection, uh,

Mark: 50:34

over two years span, I'm going to guess 80,

Ty Walker: 50:39

Uh, quite a bit more than that. So right now we're sitting at 196 inspections in the

Mark: 50:46

So close to a hundred.

Ty Walker: 50:49

Yeah. With 40 or so

Mark: 50:51

trades on average two and a half per, per power unit per driver

Ty Walker: 50:56

Yep. Pretty much. So with the CSA, they're looking at those, those inspections and that's really where they're getting their information. If a driver's pulled in and, and they're inspected,

Mark: 51:07

they can either

Ty Walker: 51:08

away with a clean inspection or. We don't like to see it, but sometimes they walk away with a violation. So of those 196 uh, inspections right now, we've got 24 violations. So within the last two years, we've had 24 violations and that's really how they're giving us this CSA score. around

Mark: 51:30

10%.

Ty Walker: 51:32

You could say

Mark: 51:32

or or violations. How's that compare to other companies, our size.

Ty Walker: 51:39

That's

Mark: 51:40

a good guess How's it

Ty Walker: 51:41

would think I would think we're doing pretty well. So they give you this score and they actually put you on

Mark: 51:48

a just

Ty Walker: 51:49

it a graph that kind of shows you where you compared to other companies our hours of service score right now, we're in the 36th percentile. So that means there's 36, Well, 36% of the companies that are similar to us in size. Are better than us, right? So we can always improve. There's always room for improvement, but insurance providers, this is a big deal for them. They're looking at this all the time and we want to keep those scores good. because we don't want to, you know, we don't want our, our premiums to go up. They're going to go up regardless. Right. We've Pretty much figured that, but anything that we can do to try and. just keep those scores low. It's going to help us big time with, with the premiums. And I think in turn, you're going to see that come back to the drivers Don't you think wouldn't Stokes be more in a position to help drivers out. If

Mark: 52:45

insurance much like equipment is one of the costs that never go. it goes, it doesn't go up every single year, but whenever it increases that you never see a drop, our hope is to keep it from increasing rapidly. That's that's the big hope. The other thing with insurance companies is their profits are tied to. The stock market, things like that. They take our premium and they invested the stock. Market's not doing so hot. They have a tendency to raise rates. Now for the last few years, it's been good, but we could, I can remember the tech. You don't remember this the.com bubble M 2000 everybody's insurance rates went up even if they had great safety

Ty Walker: 53:30

wait wait in 2000. Yeah. So like the year after 1993 Yeah. Yeah, I was born in 93. so I was seven years old.

Mark: 53:39

You know

Ty Walker: 53:40

what were you doing then? Mark? You are trucking at that

Mark: 53:42

point. I was, uh, I was tracking now. Wow. Yeah

Ty Walker: 53:45

Wow. That just means you're

Mark: 53:46

experienced.

Ty Walker: 53:47

You got a lot of experience. Yeah.

Mark: 53:50

I got a tire Thumper hammer older than you.

Ty Walker: 53:53

I believe it. And it's experienced too. It's probably thumped a lot of tires,

Mark: 53:57

bumped a lot of tires.

Ty Walker: 53:59

So talking about this mark insurance companies, they're going to look a lot at our company as a whole. But they're going to look at each driver as well. And when we think about if you're a professional driver, this is totally your livelihood, right. This is how you're paying your

Mark: 54:16

bills. It's important to drivers because

Ty Walker: 54:20

it could actually disqualify you from an insurance company, even wanting to insure you. If you've got a nasty tracker they're not going to want to insure you.

Mark: 54:30

Yeah. I would think like the reckless driving thing where you're essentially. According to their actuaries. You're guaranteed. You're going to have an accident. No, one's going to hire you.

Ty Walker: 54:39

Exactly. And then you, you've got to find a new job. So, but I think right now,

Mark: 54:44

I mean,

Ty Walker: 54:45

McDonald's Arby's, they're paying Pretty good. So there's that out there? Um, so let's talk about some actions that we can take as professional drivers. What can we do? That's going to help the company or whatever company you're working for. It's going to help you make sure you've got your job. and honestly, you're just going to be a safer driver. It's going to help the motoring public So the different categories of, of the CSA, the first one that we always look at is unsafe driving. So if we look at our past record, one of the violations that we got was actually a speeding, ticket. mark, what do you do when you're out on the road to help yourself? avoid speeding?

Mark: 55:30

I generally am pretty careful about setting my cruise control and saying it where I know I'm not going to get pulled over.

Ty Walker: 55:38

Oh yeah.

Mark: 55:39

It's not necessarily on the speed limit. Right. But, uh, Very close within tolerance. The speed limit through 25 years of experience. I know if I'm within three or four miles an hour of the speed limit, I'm probably. Okay. So what

Ty Walker: 55:54

California? what do you do there? I did the same

Mark: 55:57

I set my cruise on 59, 59

Ty Walker: 56:01

Good to know.

Mark: 56:02

Well, and if you think about driving through California, the diff I've done the.

Ty Walker: 56:06

math.

Mark: 56:07

Okay. Whenever we do, let's say a hill Mar around Petaluma and Omar, the amount of time, the difference between 59 or 65 is about 10 minutes. You've got an extra 10 minutes a day in your logs. And even if you don't, I'd take a 10 minute violation on my logs before I got a speeding ticket in California,

Ty Walker: 56:28

Absolutely. That's a, it's a great point. Like really? It's not getting you ahead that

Mark: 56:33

much. No.

Ty Walker: 56:35

So, is it worth the ticket?

Mark: 56:36

Is it worth.

Ty Walker: 56:38

That violation following you around for the next three

Mark: 56:41

years and almost everywhere else we go. The speed limit is at or above our governor, on our trucks with the exception of towns I'm, I'm really careful driving through towns, but again, if you think about driving through a town, how much time you spend in a town each day, let's say you're going to Texas. You drive through a lot of little towns with stop and go lights. It doesn't amount to more than 10 or 15 minutes a day. Driving 10 over the speed limit versus driving two or three over the speed limit.

Ty Walker: 57:11

Yeah. but It's not

Mark: 57:12

going to give

Ty Walker: 57:13

that much more time on your weekend.

Mark: 57:15

Yeah,

Ty Walker: 57:15

So Those are good points. Um, another one that we had So this happened kind of recently we had a driver that used his cell phone and he got caught and they showed up on his, his MVR and also on our CSA. Unfortunately this resulted in him losing his job. So our insurance provider,

Mark: 57:38

they didn't even

Ty Walker: 57:39

want to insure

Mark: 57:40

him.

Ty Walker: 57:40

So,

Mark: 57:41

Yeah, that's a tough one. Um, because we do use our phones for communication so much these days, not only. Friends or family but often also with dispatch and many of our drivers are using their phones for their logging device.

Ty Walker: 57:55

Right.

Mark: 57:56

Again, if you're, if that's the use for it, it needs to actually be in a holder right on the dash. You can't just have it loose in a cup holder or so you can put it up to your ear.

Ty Walker: 58:08

Yeah. Yeah. It's supposed to be securely mounted. Right We we've talked about that in the past. What do you typically do when you're out on the road? Cause mark. you drive Quite a bit. What do you do to keep yourself from using your phone? Cause it's a temptation, right? I mean, there's a lot of stuff. going

Mark: 58:24

It's for sure. A temptation I we've gone to in the USU truck, we've got a, uh, phone Mount that's visible.

Ty Walker: 58:33

without

Mark: 58:34

Leaving my, the eyes from the road for too much, too long. Um and I do a lot of ignore So you can tell if I'm out in the truck, cause I may or may not return a

Ty Walker: 58:46

call You're just not going to

Mark: 58:47

for like hours. Right. Um it, everything, I mean, you have to be aware of things. If I was out trucking more I'd probably have a. Bluetooth headset. So I could answer more calls talk while I'm driving. But as far as texts and emails, I might see what it is. But if it's nothing that requires my attention, right, then it gets ignored until I'm on my break.

Ty Walker: 59:13

And really That's what you've gotta do. You've gotta be able to just ignore it and realize. This text message, whatever it might be, might be wife, your girlfriend. It can wait phones

Mark: 59:28

a talk to text feature. Now I use, I use that quite a bit on my iPhone,

Ty Walker: 59:33

and I think part of it too, mark, it comes down to trip planning because a lot of it we can avoid now text messages and stuff. We can't really avoid, But as far as like reaching up and trying to figure out, our GPS, we can avoid that if we do that

Mark: 59:47

before, prior to rolling.

Ty Walker: 59:49

Yeah. So just set yourself up for success, make sure that you're ready to roll because typically when you're going, you're going to be driving for the next four or five hours. So,

Mark: 59:59

So

Ty Walker: 1:00:00

those are just a few ideas, that, that we can do, you know, avoid you're using your phone, obviously it's against the law. to use your phone while driving but also adjust your speed. just a few simple things that drivers can apply, to be a better safe driver. So. that's kind of what I got for you today, mark.

Mark: 1:00:16

Awesome. Well, thank you, Ty, for being prepared with notes, you're always better than I am

Ty Walker: 1:00:22

I've got to I got to have something there,

Mark: 1:00:24

right? Yeah I just wing it

Ty Walker: 1:00:26

You All you do. You do a good job.

Mark: 1:00:29

All right, Ty we'll catch you next time.

Ty Walker: 1:00:31

Okay. Thanks mark.

Becki: 1:00:41

Welcome back from Taiwan or safety minute, mark. I have a question for you. I want to know. When do you talk to your drivers about their CSA score?

Mark Lawver: 1:00:48

This might be a better question for Taiwan Docker. but my understanding is whenever someone Gets a violation that impacts their CSA score Thai or Tyler will have a conversation with them. And if they never, if they don't, they still get an annual review every year And we pull an MVR every year on them also. So that's the time when a conversation happens, CSA.

Becki: 1:01:14

they'll sorta know on a yearly basis where they're at.

Mark Lawver: 1:01:17

Yeah. Yeah. I like, I don't know. I don't know what my CSA score is. Right. I have no idea personally. I just know I haven't had a violation. Uh,

Becki: 1:01:32

Ty. I think it's time you look up mark CSA score and have a conversation with him.

Mark Lawver: 1:01:38

I'm trying to think when I would have had a violation and it's got to be. At least 10 years or more

Becki: 1:01:50

since I've been in Utah.

Mark Lawver: 1:01:51

I don't think I've had a violation since we lived in Utah. I've had a lot of clean inspections. All right. Uh, Do you have the question from the

Becki: 1:02:01

Yeah I have a question from truck number 6 79,

Mark Lawver: 1:02:05

Jeremy Jukes.

Becki: 1:02:06

Yep. Uh, he has trailer. 55 14, the tire shop I'm at replaced the blown tire with the steer tire 2 75, 80 R 22. I don't know how to

Mark Lawver: 1:02:19

2.5. So that's a, that's the tire size 2 75 80 R 2025.

Becki: 1:02:24

man alive. That's a lot of numbers anyway, per Mark's instructions. The tires on the trailer. R 2 95, 75 R 22.5. Is there.

Mark Lawver: 1:02:37

Oh, okay. So a good catch by Jeremy on this one, he was the first one who made me aware that our new trailers had a new tire size for Michelin. So let's talk about the sizes and what all those numbers mean. The first number is the tread width. 75, 2 75 and that's in millimeters

Becki: 1:03:00

and 2 95 is the new

Mark Lawver: 1:03:01

Yeah. So the new ones are 20 millimeters wider than the old ones. The second number, the first one was 2 75 ADR, right. And the new ones are 2 95, 75. That's called the aspect ratio. And what that means is the aspect ratio is how tall the sidewall of the tire. is From the rim to the tread, that ratio is 2 75, 80. It's 80% of the width. So if you times 275 millimeter millimeters by 0.8, that will tell you how tall the tire is from rim to tread. Okay. The last number R means. rim 22.5. That's the rim size So the rims are 22.5 inches across diameter. So

Becki: 1:03:59

is there a problem?

Mark Lawver: 1:04:01

No. And if you do the math, if you take 2 95 times 75, times 0.7, five or 2 75 times 0.8, those two tires are within a millimeter of the same. height. And the reason that height is important is because if you put two tires next to each other that are different Heights,

Becki: 1:04:23

that's going to cause problems.

Mark Lawver: 1:04:25

taller tire, it takes it further to roll down the road, right? And Every time it goes around, it drags the shorter tire and it actually wears the shorter tire out quicker. We had a major issue. We had a tire shop that put on. And 11 are 22 5. So that's kind of an old school. They call them tall tires in the industry. Everything we run is low profile, low profile, because a shorter sidewall means there's less rolling resistance, better fuel mileage, tall tires, get, get your, your vehicle up in the air. More. So they put an 11, which is 11 inches. That means that tire is 11 inches wide and 11 inches tall. Okay.

Becki: 1:05:15

Gotcha.

Mark Lawver: 1:05:16

They put 11 or 22, 5 next to one of our 2 75, 80 R 24, 22 fives. And that 11 R is about two inches taller than the other tire. By the time that the driver got here, the tread was completely off of our short tire. there was nothing left of Cause it had been drug, an extra two inches every mile going down the road. Every time it went around a tire, we'll go around about 500 times per mile. So every mile that tire was getting drug a thousand inches and it just dragged the right.

Becki: 1:05:55

Well, I appreciate you answering the questions about the

Mark Lawver: 1:05:58

Yeah and the same thing applies to car tires. If anyone's listening to this. It's the same math. So if you go look at your car tire, if you went and looked at your pickup, I believe it's a 2 60 hours. 18. If I remember right. Your pickup, that's what it

Becki: 1:06:16

we are pretty particular about the tire. So you always have matching tires on all of our,

Mark Lawver: 1:06:20

yeah. Yeah, but it would be the same thing. If it's 275 millimeters wide, 60 is the aspect ratio. So that's how much, with the percentage height off the rim. So now you know how to read the size on. I'm sure that's it's important because we need to match sizes. Right. So, so we're not wearing out tires quicker. And after the incident with the 11, our 22 5, I blasted an email out to everybody saying you gotta watch. these tire guys, and make sure that they're putting the same tire next to another one. And Jeremy caught this issue. Well, it turns out it's just. The reason Michelin has changed. They're going to go to all 2 95 eventually is because of Canada Canadians.

Becki: 1:07:09

Gotcha.

Mark Lawver: 1:07:09

don't allow their, their weight. the weight that they allow on the Canadian roads is based off of footprint. So how wide the tire is,

Becki: 1:07:18

they want a little bit wider

Mark Lawver: 1:07:20

So if Michelin goes to a wider tire, those tires in Canada will be allowed to carry more weight. That's why they're changing But in the meantime, it's confusing. all of my drivers

Becki: 1:07:30

Sure. And that millimeter is okay.

Mark Lawver: 1:07:33

One it's like I did the math, it works out to 1.2, five millimeters. It's not perfect.

Becki: 1:07:41

Sure. Which one you would like? Perfect.

Mark Lawver: 1:07:44

I would. So essentially that tire is getting drug 500 millimeters right down the road. That's not, it's not perfect. It's okay. It's okay when we

Becki: 1:07:57

then the 11

Mark Lawver: 1:07:58

Yeah. Yeah. When we get them back here, we're just switched them out as quick as we can. Uh, we're just, we're going to have to deal with it and it's going to get worse over time because Michelin is going to change all their tires over to 2 95, 75. So anyway, Now, you know. Thank you for listening to episode 20 of driver to driver, a Stokes trucking podcast. Thank you, Becky lover For being my fill-in co-host for this episode,

Becki: 1:08:25

anytime.

Mark Lawver: 1:08:26

Yeah. This may be, um, the last episode until December, November is, how did the kids say it? A shit show for me, I've got three away football games for Utah state and one home. game. Um, and they're, they're great distance away games. We're going to El Paso, San Jose Albuquerque. So I'm going to be kind of a busy boy plus the weather's turning and you know, so I probably won't talk to everybody until December having. happy Halloween and a great Easter.

Becki: 1:09:06

No.

Mark Lawver: 1:09:08

Oh, You remember that? About the shit show that's what's going on in my head. Easter. Easter is not till happy Thanksgiving, everybody

Becki: 1:09:21

happy Thanksgiving, everyone

Mark Lawver: 1:09:23

make sure to rate and review on whatever service you download and listen to us on, uh, subscribe. And we'll get another episode out to you just as soon as we can.

1:09:42

Thank you for listening to driver to driver. Uh, Stokes trucking podcast. For more information on Stokes trucking, please visit our website Stokes trucking.com. You can also learn more about us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram at Stokes trucking. The intro and outro music is I can't keep still. The bumper music between segments is fetch me another one, Both performed by the caffeine creek band Driver to driver is a frankfurter studios production